In this episode, Alex, Andres and Erik discuss the intricacies and nuances of extending a job offer to your remote employees. Depending on where they're from, they might be used to something completely different! It is important to take into consideration cultural differences that may arise, too.
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A big thank you to our post-production wizard, Vanesa Monroy.
[A moderately paced, trip hop song that is best described as chill and cruising. Synth and techno drums are the primary instruments in this track. This is our podcast background music, it starts playing at the very beginning]
[00:00:00] Andres: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Andres
[00:00:05] Josephine: [00:00:05] and I'm Josephine. Welcome to the Remoter Podcast.
[00:00:08] Andres: [00:00:08] Follow us in season one of this journey as we cover anything and everything you need to know in order to successfully build and scale a remote first team. Someone who's been working remotely for over a decade, our CEO, Alexander Torrenegra shares his personal experiences, lessons learned and advice for those of you who are curious and interested in exploring the future of work.
[00:00:33] [00:00:30] Josephine: [00:00:33] This podcast is brought to you by Torre, the end to end recruitment solution for Remoters. Get our free AI powered sourcing and processing tools, or let Torre recruit on your behalf at torre dot co. That's T O R R E dot C O.
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[00:00:53] Andres: [00:00:53] Thank you for tuning in into a new episode of our podcast. In this chapter, Josephine, we're going to be [00:01:00] talking about what happens after you've done everything else. Well, after you've done your personal branding right, after you structure remote team processes and culture, after everything is in place and you're ready to start hiring, you're ready to start growing your team. How did you do the little but very important last step, which is extending an offer to a remote team member. So my question for you, Josephine, is how do you feel when we extended the offer to you? Was there, did we do well?
[00:01:29] Josephine: [00:01:29] So yeah, I thought you [00:01:30] guys did it really well. So basically what happened was, I jumped on a call with Alex and Andres, and they went through the housekeeping of all I needed to know about the job and what the next steps were.
[00:01:42] And, uh, Alex told me that I wouldn't be receiving necessarily a letter of employment and that I was going to be receiving a contract. But, um, he gave me that heads up because I was actually thinking about that. I, I've been receiving [00:02:00] letters for my previous jobs, so when I heard that, Oh, I, I won't be getting a letter? Um, but then he explained like in the States, you follow the contracts and whatnot, it made a lot more sense to me and it was a very clear process. All in all.
[00:02:16] Andres: [00:02:16] Well, that's actually very important and um, I'd love for you guys, our listeners, to learn more about it in this chapter.
[00:02:26] Alex, you have been hiring people from many different cultures. I [00:02:30] want to know if there is a significant difference, working and hiring and extending an offer to different cultures.
[00:02:38] Alex: [00:02:38] I think that for most companies, as they get to know a candidate, and for most candidates, as they get to know a company, they're open to everything.
[00:02:46] They don't know what they're getting into, so nothing is a surprise. On that process, in many instances, the discovery effort falls apart. The person realizes, meh, they are not a good fit for me. In most cases, the company decides, well, this [00:03:00] is potentially a good candidate, not the best candidate. Or this person is just, weird for our standards, whatever it is, right?
[00:03:06] But when you go down the road all the way to the offer, the moment you make the offer, then there are rules that are potentially expected to be followed. That's the first time in the recruiting process where people have clear expectations of something, of how something should work, and most of those expectations come from their environment and the [00:03:30] way in which either A, they have received offers in the past or B, potentially more importantly, the way in which their colleagues, their friends, their teammates, their college mates have received offers as well.
[00:03:43] Andres: [00:03:43] So that's a cultural kind of thing.
[00:03:44] Alex: [00:03:44] Yeah. But it happens that in different cultures is quite different. For example, in the U.S., there is usually not an agreement signed that says that you are an employee of the company.
[00:03:57] Andres: [00:03:57] So there's no contract.
[00:03:58] Alex: [00:03:58] There is no contract. [00:04:00] Okay. You get a job offer letter and that letter states the details of the contract and there is no, I mean there are some templates on that, but it can vary a lot from company to company. You expect that letter, that's where the details of the job opening are.
[00:04:14] Andres: [00:04:14] But what about, what about if you get fired for unfair reasons?
[00:04:18] Alex: [00:04:18] Well, it's in the U.S., I'm not an attorney, but in the U.S., it's common law, right? So it's more about what was the spirit of the conversation, what was the, what were the details of the offer letter and such. [00:04:30] And you have to prove you prove that. And uh, and that's it.
[00:04:34] In other countries, there is no job offer letter. The offer is in many instances, verbal, and then you move on to actually sign an employment contract with the individual. Where all of the details are spelled out, and if there is an issue, then you go back to that contract that was actually signed.
[00:04:54] Erik: [00:04:54] So both sides agree to it, whereas in the U.S. the company kind of dictates here, here it is. Take it or leave it.
[00:04:59] Andres: [00:04:59] Well you [00:05:00] can negotiate it, I guess.
[00:05:00] Alex: [00:05:00] I
[00:05:01] Andres: [00:05:01] think in
[00:05:01] Alex: [00:05:01] the U.S. do as well. I mean, this is the, this is the offer letter and take it or leave it. These I always negotiation. I think that that you can find that in both places, but in one you're expecting an offer letter. If you're, let's say you have, you're based out of anywhere on earth and you're, other than the U.S., and you're recruiting a person in the U.S. and you're making an offer and you don't send an offer letter to that person, that person is going to feel like, okay, something is not right here because these conversations should come with an offer letter that you're not sending me.
[00:05:30] [00:05:29] Right? On the other hand, most countries in Latin America work this way. If you make an offer to someone and you don't follow up by signing a contract, the person is going to think, well, something is wrong here because a contract should have been signed. Right? So it's important to keep those expectations clear, and if, by the way, if you know what the expectations are, you need to tell the person, this is how the process works in our company. That's on the technicalities side. Then there are other [00:06:00] cultural subtleness to keep into account. Not long ago, I was recruiting for the first time an Indian member to our team from, from India.
[00:06:08] Okay. Uh, an intern. I started telling him what the details of the offer were. And he kept moving his head side to side, negating what I was telling him.
[00:06:21] Andres: [00:06:21] As he was apparently negating it.
[00:06:23] Alex: [00:06:23] As if he didn't like the details of the offer. And as I went through the, I started to get more and more and more [00:06:30] concerned.
[00:06:30] It was only halfway through the offer that I remember that in India, nodding is actually done, not by moving your head up and down. Uh, it is the case in most of the Western world, but it's actually done by moving your head side to side. So during all this time, he was actually like acknowledging and agreeing with what I was saying.
[00:06:51] Yet I was concerned because I thought that he didn't like the offers that I was making him. Now, I don't know if it's only India, if it's only a portion of [00:07:00] India, it's really side to side, or sideways or like, I honestly don't know. So my apologies to all of the people that I might be offending culturally. It's one of the things I had to learn, but even though now I've never been to India, it's one of the places that I, that I have to visit.
[00:07:13] I have it on my bucket list of places to go. Therefore my ignorance, but just like that, there are many other things to keep into account when not only you are making an offer to someone, but eventually how that person ends up working with you and your team. Here's [00:07:30] another one. I've been to Russia and I had members on my teams that were part or from countries that were part of the Soviet block back in the day.
[00:07:40] Andres: [00:07:40] Back then to like invite you to your house or something. I don't know. It's a random house hacking thought. Anyways. Please go ahead.
[00:07:45] Alex: [00:07:45] All right. Good work. I think I went to Russia before I had members of my team from that area and I found that they were very serious people. Okay. I miss smiling all the time. Right. I tried to smile, [00:08:00] you know, not with you, but with everyone else.
[00:08:03] I do smile and I smiled in Russia and people didn't smile back and it became a pattern. I was driving through Russia during the Mongol rally. It's like a 10,000 mile drive from London to Ulan Bator in Mongolia. Really cool stuff. That's, another piece of probably, I was working remotely, by the way.
[00:08:23] Andres: [00:08:23] Did you work? Oh my God...
[00:08:25] Alex: [00:08:25] A little bit, a little bit
[00:08:26] Andres: [00:08:26] But did it work, within their alley.
[00:08:28] Alex: [00:08:28] Yeah. I mean, Kazakhstan [00:08:30] has really good internet connectivity, but anyway, in Russia, people didn't smile and I felt that they were just cold people and such. Years later after the, some members of the team that we hired came from those, from that culture is that I learned that for many people in Russia, you only smile when there is something funny to smile about all.
[00:08:57] Otherwise you are just like [00:09:00] being dumb, like being uneasy. Why are you smiling if there is nothing fun to laugh about. And that's the other thing too, to keep in mind when you're working with people from all over the world.
[00:09:12] Andres: [00:09:12] Lowest IQ guy in the room was always Alex in Russia.
[00:09:18] Alex: [00:09:18] I think so.
[00:09:19] Erik: [00:09:19] Yeah. I find that happens among Chinese too. If you, if you just smile and laugh all the time that something must be wrong with you.
[00:09:27] Alex: [00:09:27] Now by the way, please. Again, my apologies if you're [00:09:30] listening to this podcast and I got it wrong, please correct me ASAP because I do want to have my cultural knowledge clear. It may not be everyone from Russia. Hmm. Uh, I mean, I can't say that every person was serious in Russia. I had an amazing time in Chechnya, for example. Some people actually smiling back at me. All overI Russia had an amazing time. It's just that, yeah, I found that quite interesting.
[00:09:53] Andres: [00:09:53] So the people you hired were also from places that maybe they don't smile, but so you, you actually asked the people you [00:10:00] hired, like, why don't you smile, or something like that? How did they...
[00:10:03] Alex: [00:10:03] No, I told them, so, so the, the, the, the person that we hired was a little bit more like Americanized. But then I told him about my experience there and then he explained that it's because of this, like, Oh yeah. Got it. Was just a simple question and you'll learn a lot.
[00:10:18] Andres: [00:10:18] So you, you're a startup founder and you want to hire someone from India or Georgia or whatever and have no idea where to start, how to do it. Um, is there any kind of like, is there any [00:10:30] kind of like service that helps you with like that or what would you suggest?
[00:10:34] Alex: [00:10:34] Not that I know, but I think that it's easy for me to say be explicit, right? But there's so many things that we take for granted, like, you know, up and down, yes, right? You would think, like, by the way, this is how we, we respond
[00:10:52] Andres: [00:10:52] By saying, yes, I accept.
[00:10:53] Alex: [00:10:53] That we are responding in an affirmative way by moving our head upside- up and down, right? Like get [00:11:00] into that level of detail. So I think, more than setting expectations clear, it's about being open to ask questions. If there is something that feels out of place, something that doesn't work, you as the leader, you need to lead by example asking the person, why are you doing that? Right? Or this doesn't feel right. Why is that? And you need to teach people also to be open about asking those questions so that they feel that it's not that they are the crazy ones, it's just that [00:11:30] it might be different, um, different expectations.
[00:11:32] Andres: [00:11:32] I think it's important to have the, like open the conversation, right?
[00:11:36] And at the beginning of the process be like, okay, so this is what we're going to do. Just how these words, but it's the first time you're hiring for someone in Georgia or India or whatever. Please excuse us if there's something that is missing and do let us know if you feel like we should pay attention to something.
[00:11:52] I don't know. I mean, I think it's important to open that conversation as soon as you start the process with a potential employer.
[00:11:57] Alex: [00:11:57] And also tell the person, by your way. And when we [00:12:00] see that you're doing something that for us doesn't feel right, we are going to let you know.
[00:12:04] Erik: [00:12:04] Yeah. And in that moment though, I mean, this is a very exciting and anxious moment. I mean, you know. So you're giving somebody a job. Maybe this is their dream job here, so they might respond in a way that you're not expecting, whether it's cultural or individual.
[00:12:19] Alex: [00:12:19] Yep, yep. Indeed. Uh, I mean, there are some companies, for example, where, where chewing and opening your mouth. It's okay. Right, right.
[00:12:27] There are some companies or some, some, some cultures where [00:12:30] that's definitely a, no, no. So I also like knowing that, that you have to ask, you have to be open about what makes you feel good and what doesn't make you feel good and what's acceptable or not. And also. Being open to changing your standards to accommodate standards of other people is important.
[00:12:47] Andres: [00:12:47] Pay attention to those little details and try to see how you can fit. And next time, next time someone's nodding sideways instead of up and down, think twice, because he might be saying yes and not, [00:13:00] no, no.
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[00:13:10] Andres: You know what, I actually was living with a Russian girl. Um, she was my roommates girlfriend, um, and I was actually living with them up until, uh, early October. And I asked her, I actually ask her, you know, do Russians smile, [00:13:30] uh, and she was like, well, we're a little serious, but we do smile. So my point is like, Whoa, like cultures are so different, uh, not only from country to country or region to region, but also within the same country. Um, I was talking with, uh, with a guy from In-, a friend from India the other day, and he was like, we have all these different dialects and, and languages, and sometimes people from India, they speak with other people from India in English because they have so many differences in their different, [00:14:00] um, languages.
[00:14:00] So it's something. Something really interesting to ponder on. Um, I actually meant to ask you, Josephine, what's the weirdest difference you've learned from working at Torre?
[00:14:13] Josephine: [00:14:13] I dunno, I wouldn't call this weird, but this was definitely something that I caught on recently was, how you guys put your first and middle names together, but just a couple of letters. So we have, um, a guy on our team named [00:14:30] Juanfer, but his name is Juan and then for, Fer, Fer...
[00:14:34] Andres: [00:14:34] Fernando.
[00:14:35] Josephine: [00:14:35] But then he told me that there's too many Juans in Colombia, so to differentiate them, then they would put the first couple of letters in the middle name together, because when I met him, I was like, Juanfer... sounds like Jennifer, but I don't think that's what his parents were going for, um, really?
[00:14:57] Andres: [00:14:57] And that happens with Mafe as well.
[00:14:58] Josephine: [00:14:58] And Mafe as well. Her name [00:15:00] is Maria... Fernandes...
[00:15:03] Andres: [00:15:03] Maria Fernanda.
[00:15:07] Josephine: [00:15:07] Maria Fernanda, and I just kept calling her Maria first and then her name changed one day to Mafe and I was like, what is, what is? Um, at first I was like, what's a MAF? What's a MAF? But I was like, Oh, I get it now. Okay. It's what Juanfer does with his name and it's, so I was actually talking about it with Vanesa, who's from [00:15:30] Argentina, and she said that it's something that Colombians do. Like she doesn't, she hasn't heard of it in other places. I wanted to...
[00:15:39] Andres: [00:15:39] Well, I mean, I think it depends on your name because I don't think Andres and Felipe, I don't see how Andres and Felipe would mix.
[00:15:49] Josephine: [00:15:49] An-Fe. Felidres.
[00:15:53] Andres: [00:15:53] There's no way, but yeah, I think it's a, well, this is the first time I've heard this in my life, by the way.
[00:16:00] [00:16:00] Josephine: [00:16:00] What the, the, the names?
[00:16:02] Andres: [00:16:02] That it is weird.
[00:16:03] Josephine: [00:16:03] Oh, interesting. Because, yeah, I, I've never actually, I've never been exposed to, um, something like that before. Like, if I were to think of nicknames, people would just shorten the first name.
[00:16:15] Andres: [00:16:15] Of course.
[00:16:15] Josephine: [00:16:15] Yeah. For example, yeah. Or Josephine, Jo. But I would never think about putting my middle name and first name together, for example. So I was just, my middle name is Christy Yen. Um, so it's [00:16:30] like the Chinese version and the English version. I'm going to say, I don't even know how I'd combine that, but, but I've never heard of the combination thing before until I started at Torre and I was like, oh, that's pretty cool.
[00:16:43] Andres: [00:16:43] Well to you listening to this podcast, what is the, I don't know if the quote, the proper, the politically correct question is what is the weirdest, but I will say, what is the most interesting, yeah, what is the most interesting, um, and perhaps quirky thing and cultural difference [00:17:00] you've ever heard of? Please leave them on the social media.
[00:17:05] Josephine: [00:17:05] Let us know and we'll see you in our final episode next week.
[00:17:09] Andres: [00:17:09] Yeah.
[00:17:10] Josephine: [00:17:10] Oh my God. We're already there for the season one of the Remoter podcast.
[00:17:14] Andres: [00:17:14] I can't wait for what we have on season two and if you want to contribute, if you want to be part of it, it'd we feel like we should interview someone or talk about a certain topic, this is a time to say so because we're in the middle of producing it so.
[00:17:30] [00:17:30] Josephine: [00:17:30] Well, let us know and you'll hear about all the information to do that in our outro.
[00:17:40] Andres: [00:17:40] Thank you so much for tuning in. A few last words, if you enjoyed that episode, please...
[00:17:45] Josephine: [00:17:45] Follow us on social media @remoterproject and let us know what you think about the latest episode.
[00:17:50] Andres: [00:17:50] We'd love for you to join us as we continue building the Remoter library on our website, remoter dot com. That's R E M O T E R dot com.
[00:18:00] [00:17:59] Josephine: [00:17:59] If you want even more resources, sign up for our free Founding and Growing Remotely online course. You can find that on our website, or check the description for links. Don't forget to follow and subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. SoundCloud, wherever you listen to your podcasts.
[00:18:16] Andres: [00:18:16] And by the way, we've got some exciting news. We're gearing up for season two. This time, we're going to go further into interviewing remote work leaders all around the world, and we'd like to ask you, what are some questions, or topics you'd like to hear [00:18:30] covered next time? Who would you like to hear on the show and let us know through Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, e-mail, um, you know, carrier pigeon, whatever it is you like - we're all ears
[00:18:40] Josephine: [00:18:40] And remember, we're here to make work fulfilling. So what part will you play in shaping the future of work?
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