Recorded on 02/20 in Lisbon, Portugal at Time to Cowork Lisbon. Founder of Remote Work Movement and remote work consultant Goncalo Hall met up with Remoter at Time to Cowork Lisbon to re-cap the motivations behind his event Remote Shift, and the overall importance of physical events for remote workers. Remote Work Movement aims to help companies go remote. Goncalo’s drive for connecting people and building communities is very apparent and him being entrenched in all things remote definitely helps his position, learning on the go and pulling off big ideas.
Recorded on 02/20 in Lisbon, Portugal at Time to Cowork Lisbon. Founder of Remote Work Movement and remote work consultant Gonçalo Hall met up with Remoter at Time to Cowork Lisbon to re-cap the motivations behind his event Remote Shift, and the overall importance of physical events for remote workers. Remote Work Movement aims to help companies go remote. Gonçalo’s drive for connecting people and building communities is very apparent and him being entrenched in all things remote definitely helps his position, learning on the go and pulling off big ideas.
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Josephine Tse 0:00
It's time for season two of the Remoter Podcast. I'm your host Josephine
Josephine Tse 0:05
As a continuation from season one with Alex and Andres, I had the opportunity to interview some remote work leaders, ranging from companies, consultants, advocates and more to add to Remoter's stash of free resources and human-centred stories, enriching our educational platform about remote work. This podcast is sponsored by Torre, a new kind of professional network that automatically connects talent with opportunity. Founded by Alexander Torrenegra, our goal is to make work fulfilling for everyone find the job of your dreams by visiting torre.co. That's T O R R E dot C O.
Josephine Tse 0:49
We were walking around Cais de Sodres in Lisbon, taking photos and videos after our podcast recording. Goncalo points me to the best spot. It's a supermarket called Pingo Doce, where I bought way too much food for lunch. But that's okay. I remember getting the feijoada, but then realising that it was a vegan version, which nothing against vegans or anything, I just didn't really want the vegan version at that time. Anyways, Goncalo's story is one that's really familiar, I'd say- this clarity that occurs after one finds their true north star. You know what they're good at, and what they're passionate about, and that can change a lot. It just so happens that Goncalo's calling revolved around remote work. And he's on a mission to spread the word. Like Remoter, Remote Work Movement continues to flourish, even more so today.
Josephine Tse 1:44
Welcome to another episode of The Remoter Podcast. I am currently in Time to Cowork, a new co-working space in Lisbon, Portugal. Although by the time this episode comes out, I don't know if new would still be part of the definition. It's a really cool place- tall ceiling, really old architecture, I would say? I'm here today with Goncalo Hall of Remote Work Movement.
Josephine Tse 2:10
Thank you for the invitation. I think I'm really happy. Finally, we've been talking for a long time about doing this. And now we are finally here, and you are in Lisbon.
Josephine Tse 2:17
Thank you, thank you. I know listeners probably want me to shut up now and they want to hear a little bit more about you.
Josephine Tse 2:22
I created the Remote Work Movement, seven, eight months ago, which is basically a podcast where I want to share the best people making a ruckus in this movement. It can be anything from CEOs, to just people with NGOs, like Grow Remote, like Shelley Faussett from SoloWorks doing an amazing job. So I try to interview as many people as different as possible. And besides that, I try to help companies to implement remote work. That's a big part of my work. And I organise a lot of events of about remote work. People get to think that I'm a little bit crazy because of it. I only speak about remote work. I live remote work.
Gonçalo Hall 2:58
I want more people to work remotely, that's basically my mission. And that's what Remote Work Movement is all about. I truly believe that I can make a change in the world and where I can help people make a change in the world. And since I found my mission, I went all in with my mission, which is help more people and companies to work remotely.
Josephine Tse 3:01
That's amazing. So right now, when I checked your website, oh, I see of course, as you mentioned, the podcast. You mentioned your consulting work.
Gonçalo Hall 3:22
That's about it. For the Remote Work Movement, we want to help build like a full ecosystem. We want to do anything that will help people and companies to go remote.
Josephine Tse 3:30
Got it. So can you tell me a little bit about how you, how did you even find out about remote work and how did it trigger in your mind that okay, this is my mission. Like when did that happen?
Gonçalo Hall 3:39
I used to play volleyball so I started organising beach volleyball tournaments because I strongly believe that there was not enough beach volleyball tournaments in Portugal and I still believe in that. It's a very small markets. But then I was working in Aveiro in a company with four screens in front of me, four big monitors in front of me, and I found an article about this kind of people, kind of crazy people that travel full time and work remote. I did what I do with everything. I started reading everything about it books, articles, and yeah, I ended up moving up to Germany. This is when I found I could actually work from anywhere and travel, which was my big, big passion. So yeah, since then it was a long way up. I went to Germany, I went to Poland to work first there. Then I got my first remote gigs as a freelancer. Okay, and then I start to work with Remote-How. And here I am today to make the movement grow.
Josephine Tse 4:27
Okay, awesome. Awesome. Can you tell me a little bit about the clients that you've had with your consulting side?
Gonçalo Hall 4:34
For me all the stories in Portugal are amazing because this country is like 10 years behind everything else. In terms of remote work, don't get me wrong. It's true. Like what's happening to the west normal today in the US will happen in five to 10 years in Portugal.
Josephine Tse 4:48
Interesting. Okay.
Gonçalo Hall 4:49
It's still discussion. The bosses still don't trust the employees. So all the contact I have with companies first when I started three months ago here in Lisbon was like hell no, remote work, never. Right now we are changing. Right now I'm being contacted by a lot of companies and not I don't even have time to outreach to contact them. So I'm just being contacted by them. And I'm talking about like really big companies with more than 1000 people that never thought that in Portugal to start to implement remote work already. Okay, so those stories for me where I help Portuguese companies coming from my country, which is a big part of my mission to go remote and help them, so all the stories around there, they're really really memorable for me.
Josephine Tse 5:29
Like what are some things that like, what are the introduction emails to you? What do they kind of look like when they ask the question of how do I even start?
Josephine Tse 5:38
So because I speak an organiser of events, they know me. Somehow they went to an event, okay, somebody talked about me, and they are all looking to go remote for one of three reasons usually. The first one is they need to hire more people, okay. The talent is very scarce right? Because big companies moved here, they got all the talent. Portuguese people actually move out from Portugal because the salaries are very low here compared to the rest of Europe, okay, so they are struggling to hire people and they think remote work will be good also to keep people there. Some companies don't have really high salaries, as I mentioned. So they think that if they offer remote work, they will stop the bleeding, basically they, they will stop losing people. And the third thing is that offices are crazy expensive right now, because of all the companies moving here. So a lot of really big companies are moving to Lisbon, to Porto. So office prices are shooting up. So that means that they want to cut costs and while still growing, because other companies are growing, so they want to grow, but not when they don't want to increase the costs. So that's the big, the big three of people want to go remote right now.
Josephine Tse 6:41
When did the company start moving in? When was the shift?
Josephine Tse 6:45
This is eight years ago. After 2008 things went down with the crisis. After that, Portugal became cool somehow. I don't know why, a lot of tourist prices, like tourism prices, but people came here, people start people start moving here like, remote workers, digital nomads This is a huge hub for digital nomads, Lisbon, Europe, one of the biggest. I think all that combined brought people here and we have really good talent. Okay, so universities are really good here. IT talent is amazing in Portugal. Salaries are low, at least lower than the rest of Europe. So it became very attractive to everyone.
Josephine Tse 7:19
Got it. Got it. I don't know why I didn't ask you this before but what do you what is your background? What did you study in school or what did you?
Josephine Tse 7:27
So I have issues with school, okay. No, in good way like, I love to learn. I read a lot, I think more than the average for sure. I still went to university. I have three half degrees, like the first one was landscape design. Next, I went for Aviero, and I learned languages. Okay. So then I found what I was really good at, which was creating solutions for businesses. I found this through AIESEC which is an International Students Association. So they give you these problems. They have some real problems from companies and you it's usually marketing and business problems and I could solve it in less than five minutes while everybody else was struggling. I was like, ah, so there is something I get I'm better than average, like, naturally. And this is where I found that I should go to marketing. So I was in marketing for three months, and that dropped out. So I'm a little bit against university. I think it works for some really technical things, like doctors, engineers, etc. Yeah, but for humanists, and it doesn't work for getting the job, which is what they was- they were selling before, right? Oh, you come to university to get a good job.
Josephine Tse 8:29
And now everybody has a degree. And so what's the difference?
Josephine Tse 8:31
Yeah, exactly. A plumber gets four times more money than a master's degree in Lisbon. So yeah, just not university for me anymore.
Josephine Tse 8:39
I see. I see. You are organising a lot of events. That's something I guess I found you through. You've gained a reputation of doing. I want to hear a little bit more about that. I know Remote Shift was the first first big one, the first big one and that was in Lisbon. How long ago?
Gonçalo Hall 8:57
In October, late October.
Josephine Tse 8:58
Why did you see the need to have an in person event for remote workers?
Gonçalo Hall 9:03
So I was very inspired by Running Remote. I was in Running Remote, I met part of Remoter team there as well. They were amazing, actually, they were super, super cool. If they are listening to this, congratulations, guys, you rocked Running Remote. So I found that because we are remote workers, we value more than human connection. And there's also, so there is a lot of information on the internet. It's hard to find the right connections and have deep relationships with them. This is really hard. Like I know a lot of people online. While I was at Running Remote, what I found is I built real connections. People with whom I still speak to today. People with whom I did business, people that came to my podcast, came all from Running Remote. From that two and a half days that we were together in Bali. And I was in Bali for four months. But that two days totally changed the amount of people I know and in the movement. So because of that, I was really inspired to do more of that. I see how in person events can actually change your whole network. And I think this is huge for anyone that wants to push something forward. I think the network is the most valuable thing you have. Even if you don't know much, you can sketch where you have to go through your network. And that's how you find me, network network network. Right.
Josephine Tse 10:14
Right.
Gonçalo Hall 10:15
And yeah, I think there is no better way... it's not even about learning. You know, people think that the conferences are about the experience and the learning process. It's about the network. It's about, you put under the same roof, X amount of people that are really passionate enough to be inside that roof. So everyone there is with the mission. Everyone there wants to prove something and make something with remote work. And physical events change the way you perception people. I love remote work. I don't change it for anything. But that two, three days when you go to the events, like you'll know people forever, and I'm, I'm now getting the benefits from it because I do, I did Remote Shift because I'm doing events. Because I speak at events, people came to speak with me. Although my mission is to promote remote work all around the world, there's something about your country and it's like there is something that you see the potential that your country has and that nobody else is looking at. And by then, like two years ago, you see that Lisbon was a huge digital nomad hub. So a lot of people are moving here. In the co-working space, we have full teams that move to Lisbon, to start their business here and that they're growing their business here. So remote work is coming to Lisbon, just not for the Portuguese people, because companies are not implementing it. So I thought, what if I could bring like really nice experts from all fields that work remotely and put them in the front of companies and help them understand the power of remote work? So this is exactly the goal, which is to bring people from the best companies from GitLab, Nomad Academy, etc. And just putting it out there because you got people attending from all the big companies, and they're left with an idea that okay, maybe remote work is just not a perk, maybe we can actually do something with it. And it changes the perception. And that's I think one of the reasons why so many companies now in 2020 are contacting me, exactly because they understand the benefits and the start of that, I believe, and I hope it was Remote Shift.
Josephine Tse 12:15
Did you get any feedback from the companies after event? Like what were some of the things they said to you?
Gonçalo Hall 12:21
I had a lot of meetings after that, because like, we want to start work remotely. Our employees cannot know about it, but we want to implement next year. And so they are now in the process of testing. They know more about it and informed a lot of people that were also speaking, they help us or companies, for example, we have a person from Hello Monday speaking there, and she's also a consultant. She does all the work with the culture and also implementing remote work as well. So that was a very interesting change of experiences and a lot of people came to me already. We do want to implement this. Nobody knows about it, but we secretly wish to do it because we see the benefits.
Josephine Tse 13:00
I want to know a little bit about how it was planning your first big event and what lessons you're going to bring on to future ones.
Gonçalo Hall 13:08
So this was huge because I was planning to organise by myself first. I had a couple of friends who were crazy enough to say yes. But then I met to some other two other persons that had the same goal, had no connections in the in the movement. And again, my big benefit are the connections. So they wanted to organise something about remote work, they want to bring some Instagrammers and stuff like that. I was like, well, this is a bad idea. But they did have the brands and they did had the will to do something cool. Because of that, I decided to partner with them. And we were three by then organising the whole conference, totally remote. I was living in Asia, mostly in Bali, between Bali, Vietnam and Thailand. One of them was in Lisbon, and the other was in Braga, which is like 400 kilometres from Lisbon. And we did the whole call, we just met one day before the conference. So this was chaotic. But it was fun. Like just when just the... Some things I learned along the way- we did organise it. It was very successful. Nobody during the event knew about how the story... and this was really really a good conference, like inside the conference, things worked out. Outside, it was more difficult because we did we had different expectations. And so one of my first advice is set expectations right even before you organise something.
Josephine Tse 14:20
Okay.
Gonçalo Hall 14:21
Because my expectation, what I wanted to do since the beginning is to bring do a conference in English. Lisbon is super international so super super, we have a lot of foreign people here. And I wanted to do everything in English while my partners wanted to do something all in Portuguese. Oh, with more Portuguese people. As I told you we don't have many Portuguese experts in the remote work, very few. So organising a two day conference only with Portuguese was like are you lower toward the quality?
Josephine Tse 14:47
That's a shift in audience period like...
Gonçalo Hall 14:50
Totally different set so he did the 50/50. Okay, so we went to for the middle- we did half English, half in Portuguese, which is stupid, by the way. So I learned, the first thing I learned was setting the expectations. Even before you start, it's super important, let's make sure that the whole team wants to do the same thing with the same audience in the same way. That's a huge one. And then it's just, there is a lot of, little things. I'm a very high level person, meaning I can give you 10 business ideas. I can tell you how to start and how to make money from them. But I am very bad at the operational side. So when you build a team, make sure you know yourself and you know, the people that are around you to have someone that is just a do-er, that someone that doesn't want that high level context planning thing, they just want to execute and execute. It has, like it's awesome to have ideas. If you don't have an executor in the team, you are in a bad place to start.
Josephine Tse 15:46
Okay.
Gonçalo Hall 15:47
And yeah, then just make sure you know how many people have in the team and because it's a huge amount of work. We have social media, we have the venue partnerships, sponsorship speakers. Just a lot of work, make sure divided well, because yeah, things can get messy and people will start to get nervous and complaining a lot and it's normal. Also, don't worry if you haven't sold many tickets when month before, at least if you are in Portugal, because we do everything very close to the time. So we sold like more than 100 tickets in the last two weeks. So people were just like, crazy already. Like, what are we doing? This will be like this will be a failure. And yeah, we ended up filling the room with 300 people. The goal for my team was 150- my goal, my goal was 300. I think big. I want to do big things and something that looks crazy, like I'm in Bali and say, let's organise a conference in Portugal in October I will be there one week before. It works out if you dream big first and then operate, like make the operation for it. If you dream small, what's the point?
Josephine Tse 16:52
I dream, but I don't know if it's big enough. My whole thing is like, I think a lot about the realities of things and I'm very like realistic about my expectations and all that, but...
Josephine Tse 17:02
Oh, wow.
Gonçalo Hall 17:02
What is reality? It's your expectations. Yeah, the reality is nothing more than your set of expectations for where you are. If you asked me one year ago, will you organise a conference in Portugal? I said first hell no. Why Portugal? This is stupid. And then I will tell you no, I want to think worldwide. And there is no point in organising a big conference because it's just a headache and there is no money on it, which is a big thing there. It can be money, but in the first years, you get no money from it. The benefit is never the money. So yeah, just you can do things as big as you think. If you believe it, if you think I will do something really cool with these really cool people... I got... speakers came for free. I had no money to pay them. I had no money to pay for trips of the speakers. I had barely had money to get the venue for the event. Like we organized with almost no money.
Gonçalo Hall 17:52
But things worked out. Connections, connections, convincing people so, to some companies who said okay, like we put you as a sponsor. But to pay for the tickets from the speaker, like, see how professionally plays and it's worked out because I met people- I met a lot of people that came, I met in Bali or I met in Kuala Lumpur. I called Steven from Nomad Academy. I met him in Kuala Lumpur. And they came, like their company sponsored the trip, they got, they went as a sponsor. And yeah, you can do things with partnerships even if you have no money. A conference can be super expensive, right it is super expensive. But because if you force the partnerships, if you have a network, you can make it happen.
Josephine Tse 18:32
I want to ask if you have any advice and tips for remote leaders or managers who are trying to plan the first in person event.
Gonçalo Hall 18:40
Simon Sinek says it very well - first, set expectations then make sure you have the right team. The team is the one that will be the deal breaker. Like you can break a very good idea with a bad team easily. So make sure you have the team in place. Make sure you have the place in place. You need to you do need the venue. The first thing you need to do is book the venue. The venue was a huge headache because Portugal is closed in July and August. Everybody's on vacation. So nobody answers emails. It took us two months to get the venue because nobody just answers emails, it's summer. You see, summer is very good here like, people don't work. At least Portuguese people don't work. Why? There is only two months, so you have to do everything with it. So it was very hard to get event very, very hard. So when you get the venue, you can do partnerships, you can pay for it. It depends on how much money you have. And after we have that team, expectations and the venue, let's set up what you want to shift. So what's the goal? Is the goal to promote your company, is the goal to bring people together in one place? Is the goal to just talk about remote work? So for me was the goal was, clearly to promote remote work, to bring remote work to Portugal. But if you have a goal, that there is no point. Find your why, as Simon Sinek says you have to find your why first.
Josephine Tse 19:53
So what if their why is, you know, it's not necessarily a conference or a convention or summit to bring people together. What if it's on a, more internal level, it's for retreat and all that. Do you have any tips for events like that as well?
Gonçalo Hall 20:05
Sure. Yeah, I do retreats also with companies here in Portugal. I partner with Selina, okay. Which is like, if you don't know, search selina.com. They have the most beautiful space I've ever seen. Co-living with co-working in most of the spaces. A little common mistake is that a lot of companies think, do, do, do and there is no time for people to connect. Okay, so it's like, yeah, we have to do this in the morning. We have to work in the afternoon. We have to do this at night. And when are you connecting with the other people that you only see for a couple of times and you don't have ever, actually time to connect in person? So yeah, leave time for people to connect, they will find their own things as well.
Josephine Tse 20:40
Again, like we're in this co-working space, and from our conversation right now I can tell that you are very, very community centric. You want to help bring connections to people in the remote work community. Given your track record, how else do you personally cope with issues of remote workers isolation and loneliness? That's a big thing that's been popping up so far.
Gonçalo Hall 21:00
Yeah, so I believe that the key factor here is your personality type. I'm a strong believer in personality type. I, with all my workshops I do the 16 personalities test.
Josephine Tse 21:12
E, F, F, J, A, I, N... that one? I, N, F... like with all the...
Gonçalo Hall 21:16
Yeah, so I am an ENTP for example, which basically means if I'm an extrovert, then intuitive and there's a lot... each, each letter has a meaning. But what you can find from it is the first thing you can find if you are an extrovert or an introvert. Being an extrovert, it doesn't mean that you will love to be in social setups. It just means that you get energy from people, that when I'm in a big event, while an introvert would just feel drained and tired, I am shining. I shine around people I find with people I'm happy. If I'm at home, man, I'm suffering.
Josephine Tse 21:51
Like you don't even have to talk to people. You just have to be around others.
Gonçalo Hall 21:54
I can work in cafes, I work in co-working spaces. I just need to see people. When I'm at home, it's like, even my girlfriend is there's like, no, I start to go mad. My brain is like, I'm on drugs. I don't know. I'm very, very extroverted. It looks like because, yeah, and it happens the same with introverts, but on the other way around. So if you're an introvert, and if you are in the very social co-working space, like Dojo, for example, in Bali, it's amazing co-working space, super social, people want to speak with you. People want to get something from you in a good way, not in a bad way. But it gets hard for an introvert, it's very hard. You need your time alone to recharge, and to get your energy back.
Josephine Tse 21:58
I personally didn't see loneliness and isolation as a really big problem for myself. Think the State of Work Report came out, it was like this is a main thing that people have been talking about and everything. I wasn't surprised, but I was also like, I feel like it's a very multi-layered issue like you have to know yourself and then you find a solution for yourself. So what you're saying about knowing yourself, like finding out your personality... for me, like what I do is I make sure I have some sort of very left field thing that I do very different from my career and the things that I do for my work. So, for me, as I've probably I don't even know mentioned, like 700 times on this podcast, my hobby is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
Gonçalo Hall 23:21
You're in the right place.
Josephine Tse 23:22
But I haven't had time to go yet. So that's the issue that I face. It's like I have this very left field hobby that I do. That's very different from what I do for my job, but the time, not having enough time to go and do it, especially with travelling, it's difficult, right? Because I don't have my routine, I don't have my home gyms. I have to like go somewhere to find a place and that takes a lot more effort. And it's kind of for me, at the current moment, balancing that, trying to figure it out.
Josephine Tse 23:50
It's hard being a digital nomad, it's not easy. People think this is this amazing life. I tried to kill that idea.
Josephine Tse 23:55
I tried to do it as well as, kill that idea.
Gonçalo Hall 23:57
It's like, no there's a lot of work involved in being a digital nomad. Welcome to my world.
Josephine Tse 24:01
Yeah, I mean, thankfully for me, I know I'm like, I recognise the privilege that I have, but with like my Canadian citizenship, I do the 90 day Schengen. I know for other people like always, there's visas, there's always other things involved.
Gonçalo Hall 24:16
For example, I move slower than you. You are, because you are working, you are moving along really, really fast. Yeah, yeah. So I spend at least one month in each place. And that helps because I when I look for a place to stay, I always look for co-working spaces, I need to be social. And I look for volleyball or CrossFit. If it doesn't have any, I don't go there.
Josephine Tse 24:37
You know, like as an advocate for remote work, you have to walk the talk. I think that's the phrase walk the talk. And I think that's something that stood out to me when I contacted you. I'm like, oh, you really walk the talk. You do all these things. That's what Remote Work Movement is trying to do. So your story, your mission, your values and everything. I want to know if you think it will help encourage leaders, companies and people to think about going remote-first.
Gonçalo Hall 25:01
It's very fun to work with people and to help people get a remote job. For every company you move to remote, you're impacting at least 300, 1,000 people right? So you can change things faster. And that's why I interview very interesting people like Liam Martin from TimeDoctor and CEO of Running Remote as well. I have a lot of people from companies to show what they're doing, but also to share their thoughts about the future. So yeah, part of my big, big mission is actually help more companies to go remote. And if you listen to the podcast, specifically, these more CEOs, COOs, etc, you'll find a lot of how to go remote, about what's the movement, the advantages, etc. But we are now moving a little past towards that more to the operation side of it. So I have more people from HR coming. I have more people from the legal side from us. So yeah, just different people. My goal is to show the full spectrum of people that there is no remote work. Yes, because there is no one size fits all and that's why I prefer to work with one by one and consulting. I could easily do a video course and get 10 times more money right? But working with one by one with the companies is 10 times better.
Josephine Tse 26:09
So Goncalo, thank you so much for participating with the Remoter Podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about the work that you've been doing, what you've been seeing in the space, you know, giving us your backstory, because I as you just said, like, you know, for you, getting CEOs and COOs and getting the high level kind of view on how to bring a company to remote workspace is great. And operations is also amazing. But I think from your experience, it's going to be great adding your perspective into our library.
Gonçalo Hall 26:42
That is amazing. Thank you very much for having me. I think we really fun to have you here at Time to Co-Work and having you here in Lisbon, like I have so much things to show you. But yeah, like Remoter is doing an amazing job lately and hiring you in what they are trying to do since last year since I met them in Bali. It's amazing how much they've grown. So I'm very thankful for everything you are doing for sure you got people and for interviewing people and you're doing amazing content. So thank you.
Josephine Tse 27:07
Thank you so much.
Josephine Tse 27:12
Remoter Podcast season two is recorded, produced and edited by Josephine Tse. It is mixed and mastered by Stephen Stepanic and Vanesa Monroy. Graphics and visuals by Valentina Castillo. The music track used is Skip by OBOY from SoundStripe. Follow and subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple podcasts wherever you listen to your podcasts. Don't forget, we've recently made our Founding and Growing Remotely online course completely accessible and listed on our site. Visit us at remoter.com, that's R E M O T E R dot com for more relevant content. Follow us on social media @remoterproject to stay up to date with our latest initiatives and collaborations with other remote first companies around the world. We'd also love to hear your thoughts about each episode, so feel free to tag us on socials anytime. And remember, we're here to make work fulfilling, so what part will you play in shaping the future of work?